Author Topic: Sony moving up  (Read 723 times)

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Offline Houston George

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Sony moving up
« on: April 14, 2017, 05:31:41 PM »
http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2017/04/14/sony-overtakes-nikon-in-the-us-full-frame-ilc-camera-market

I never thought Sony would bump Nikon or Canon. This just speaks on the full frame market, but still an eye opener.
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Offline Jeff Behm

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Re: Sony moving up
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2017, 05:57:02 PM »
Whew boy!  Sony has been getting a lot of love lately.  It's paying off.

Offline Duck

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Re: Sony moving up
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2017, 06:04:59 PM »
I'm waiting for Sony to tackle the medium format market. I fully believe they will do this, just don't know how soon. There have been rumors lately and rumors are usually based on speculation and many times these speculations are because of something leaked through the grapevine. We'll see what happens...
My name is Charles Unitas but friends call me Duck

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Offline Houston George

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Re: Sony moving up
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2017, 07:02:58 PM »
I heard (read) rumors of Nikon's struggles over a year ago and it made me a bit nervous. It started me thinking about how unique the situation is with tools of the trade for a photographer. If your favorite car manufacturer goes out of business, no big deal, any car brand will fit in your garage and serve the same purpose. With photography, we sell our soul to one brand or another and before you know it, we have thousands of $$ invested in a broad system and accessories that are very proprietary. I know people who have done a wholesale system switch but to me it's unthinkable. Obviously there's the expense, but for me it's emotional too. I'm a lifelong Nikon shooter even long before I dreamed of shooting for pay. I still have manual focus lenses from the 80's when I had my dream camera at the time (A black body F2AS...sigh). Changing systems for me would be like burying a loved one (ok, that's a bit extreme, but you get the point). 
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Offline Jeff Behm

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Re: Sony moving up
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2017, 09:55:19 PM »
Could be every bit as interesting as when my gorgeous Minolta system with 4 bodies and tons of their incredibly good glass was replaced by Canon because I'd turned 45 and my vision changed. Canon's AF was so far superior to Minoltas that the change made sense.  It was traumatic. I can only imagine if Nikon continues to slip. It's almost a case of "change now before you lose value".  Just like the  change from film to digital.

Offline Todd Muskopf

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Re: Sony moving up
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2017, 09:09:03 AM »
CPS sent me a survey last week.  Most of the questions seemed to revolve around mirrorless. 


Offline Jeff Behm

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Re: Sony moving up
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2017, 09:52:23 AM »
As stated above, I was using Minolta for 35mm film needs until better quality AF was necessary.  As a result, I was already switching an entire system and didn't suffer what I recall was a traumatic change of lens mount for Canon users desiring AF bodies.  In short, they were royally pissed off.  They had to replace all their glass, too (I think).  Again, trying to recall something that wasn't of immediate importance to me, didn't Nikon maintain the same mount? 

The reason I bring that up is, Canon has already made - yet again - an entirely different mount for their mirrorless bodies.  If they're going to concentrate more R&D on mirrorless, does that mean a decrease in DSLR development?  If so, do they bridge the mount gap for existing clients?  What about EVF?  I have yet to look through one of those that feels natural, though I haven't yet handled a Sony a7RII.  I hear their EVF is impressive.

On balance, I can probably play out my career on the 5D3 and 7D2 I own currently, but that's not true for a lot of people who will feel the pressure to switch, for whatever reason, probably within 5 years.  The profitability for photographers goes down as the price of keeping up technologically goes up.  Of course, the camera manufacturers mostly have healthy margins.  It used to be you kept the same body for decades and bought new glass. The improvements were in the film, an expendable commodity you bought as needed, thus a greater percentage of the profits stayed with photographers.   Now the cameras are the expendable commodity. 

Offline Duck

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Re: Sony moving up
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2017, 02:41:55 AM »
Interesting observation about film technology progression not having a direct influence on camera technology, Jeff. In the large format community there are people using 100 year old technology with modern films and getting fantastic results. I have an old post WWII Graflex that I ran modern reversal process paper through but could also handle sheet film of various types as well as Polaroid film with nothing more than an adjustment/modification of the film transport system. The camera is far older than me and it's still considered a great camera. However, my old canon 40d has less less appeal as a working camera than a modern cell phone and the only thing that changed (in a nutshell) is sensor technology.

I've always wondered why none of the big camera developers ever considered making a sensor back replacement for older camera systems? I would imagine that would be relatively easy since analog cameras don't have to rely on AF servo motors, in-camera aperture and shutter controls and all those other 'modern camera' bells and whistles. They've make digital cameras the size of credit cards but they can't retrofit an old film camera? Imagine if they did? How cool would that be?

P.S. Yes, I am aware of several of the analog to digital projects undertaken by private individuals.
My name is Charles Unitas but friends call me Duck

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Offline Houston George

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Re: Sony moving up
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2017, 06:58:02 AM »
As stated above, I was using Minolta for 35mm film needs until better quality AF was necessary.  As a result, I was already switching an entire system and didn't suffer what I recall was a traumatic change of lens mount for Canon users desiring AF bodies.  In short, they were royally pissed off.  They had to replace all their glass, too (I think).  Again, trying to recall something that wasn't of immediate importance to me, didn't Nikon maintain the same mount? 

The reason I bring that up is, Canon has already made - yet again - an entirely different mount for their mirrorless bodies.  If they're going to concentrate more R&D on mirrorless, does that mean a decrease in DSLR development?  If so, do they bridge the mount gap for existing clients?  What about EVF?  I have yet to look through one of those that feels natural, though I haven't yet handled a Sony a7RII.  I hear their EVF is impressive.

On balance, I can probably play out my career on the 5D3 and 7D2 I own currently, but that's not true for a lot of people who will feel the pressure to switch, for whatever reason, probably within 5 years.  The profitability for photographers goes down as the price of keeping up technologically goes up.  Of course, the camera manufacturers mostly have healthy margins.  It used to be you kept the same body for decades and bought new glass. The improvements were in the film, an expendable commodity you bought as needed, thus a greater percentage of the profits stayed with photographers.   Now the cameras are the expendable commodity. 
Nikon mounts remained the same, but the older pre-ai lenses won't even automatically index the aperture. I have several old ai lenses pushing 40 years old. What amazes me is the IQ many of these lenses produce. One that comes to mind is the 28mm f3.5. So sharp wide open you can count the freckles on a flies face, and they're on eBay for 40-50 bucks. People chase sharpness they think only exists in the newest high dollar offerings. Makes me laugh.

Your comment about cameras being the disposable commodity these days is so true. When used film cameras were sold in the film days, I don't remember anyone talking about how many "clicks" the camera had on it. Not saying it wasn't talked about, just that I never heard it. Today, the shutter life rating is constantly mentioned. Electronic everything does have disadvantages over the old mechanical stuff in some ways.
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Offline Jeff Behm

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Re: Sony moving up
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2017, 08:03:28 AM »
I still have - and can use - several Minoltas that I hung on to, one being for sentimental reasons, the 1976 Minolta XK that was my first truly professional body.  Back then that meant you could take it to war and it'd stand up to the abuse, same for the Nikon F or Canon F1.  I bought that XK used around the mid 80's and it absolutely could still be in use if I wish.  By the way, the Canon F1 and F1n were in production for 10 years!!!!  Think about THAT!

Offline Joe Federer

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Re: Sony moving up
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2017, 05:01:38 PM »
I'm sitting here needing to buy a few new bodies for the upcoming year ... as a 15-year Nikon shooter, this should be a no-brainer.  However, I'm looking at their offerings and not seeing a single thing that makes me want to buy.

The D810 is old and ready for replacement this fall, and after the D800 was unable to reliably focus... I'm gunshy there.
The D5 has less dynamic range than any of the other pro-level cameras out there.  So it might be able to shoot a black cat in a coal mine, but if it can't help me make a cloudless outdoor ceremony work... a half-stop better noise levels at midnight isn't going to help. (I should note, I used one for a few weddings and it's an absolute BEAST of a camera. You can barely miss focus even if you try! ... but for the price, the delivered results simply aren't better than my D750.)
The 610 was released in 2013 for cripes sake!
... uninterested in DX or compact mirrorless.

... which basically leaves me with buying some more D750s.   Don't get me wrong, I really dig my D750, and it's my go-to camera.  But you'd think after almost 3 years they'd release a straight, unqualified, improvement to at least ONE of their high end cameras.  It's amazing that rolling my 9th straight year with a pair of D700s would be the smart option.   (I'm forced to go with D750s... the dual cards and better focusing for my sanity and the extra resolution for my clients... I just wish there was somthing better.  What HAVE they been doing for the past 3 years??!?!)
« Last Edit: May 16, 2017, 05:06:55 PM by Joe Federer »

Offline Jenny Gavin-Wear

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Re: Sony moving up
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2017, 12:29:44 PM »
Interesting read.

I'm still using a couple of 5D2s.  I'm just about exclusively shooting headshots in the studio now and they have plenty of resolution for that.  For fun I'm doing landscape and the 5D2 is great for that too.  I've toyed with the 5D3, but it doesn't add enough benefit for me to spend the extra cash.

What I do lust over is the Pentax 645D/Z.  I just love the resolution, the silkiness, dynamic range and the large image size for landscape.  Can't justify the expense right now, but who knows, one day!

I've picked up a few mirrorless cameras and they don't feel right.  Fiddly controls and I like the balance of a DSLR.   I gather the EVF's are a lot better, but still not up to the OVF.



« Last Edit: May 26, 2017, 12:31:40 PM by Jenny Gavin-Wear »

Offline Jeff Behm

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Re: Sony moving up
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2017, 04:32:09 PM »
Yeah, I have a newer photographer I'm kind of helping along, and she asked me today if she should dump Nikon for Canon.  Being a Canon guy, I know what I wanted to say, because I do like Canon better, especially the 5D3, 7D2 and 6D.  But I'm equally concerned about telling her to stay with her minimal Nikon kit, simply for the reasons Joe outlined above and HG posted in the OP.  Bottom line, I suggested she get ahold of some Canon gear and some Sony gear and play with them a bit in a store or borrow from friends.  A half hour of fiddling with them should be revealing, because its about whether the work flow and ergonomics make sense to us more than it is about image quality.  The top stuff in all the major lines is remarkable.  Sony lags significantly behind on glass; however, word is they're getting on top of that.  I don't really see Nikon going away, away, but that slowing in new releases isn't for no reason. 

Offline Jenny Gavin-Wear

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Re: Sony moving up
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2017, 08:39:11 AM »
Yeah, I have a newer photographer I'm kind of helping along, and she asked me today if she should dump Nikon for Canon.  Being a Canon guy, I know what I wanted to say, because I do like Canon better, especially the 5D3, 7D2 and 6D.  But I'm equally concerned about telling her to stay with her minimal Nikon kit, simply for the reasons Joe outlined above and HG posted in the OP.  Bottom line, I suggested she get ahold of some Canon gear and some Sony gear and play with them a bit in a store or borrow from friends.  A half hour of fiddling with them should be revealing, because its about whether the work flow and ergonomics make sense to us more than it is about image quality.  The top stuff in all the major lines is remarkable.  Sony lags significantly behind on glass; however, word is they're getting on top of that.  I don't really see Nikon going away, away, but that slowing in new releases isn't for no reason.

Agree on all you say.

I think even the 5D original is worth a look and it's ridiculously cheap.  that and a 24-105, nice set up.  my old 40D with L glass still makes great photos, with obvious drawbacks.

I think Canon could have done better with the 5D4.  I quite like the images out of the 5DS, but I don't think it's worth the extra from the 5D2/3 unless the large images are needed - there is always photo stitch.  Think I'll wait for the 5D5, or (dream) the Pentax.

Offline Jeff Behm

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Re: Sony moving up
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2017, 10:03:05 AM »
I know several photographers, including myself, who agree with your opinion of the 5D Classic with "only" 12.8MP.  It's creamy smooth, ostensibly due to the very large pixels in that full frame chip.  Whatever the reason, I always thought it was much closer to a film-like look with it's images.  If it's focus quality was as fast and accurate as my 5D3 and if it's higher ISO capabilities were better than they are, I might still have mine, which I only sold a year or so ago.  For studio use with enough light to allow always working at ISO 100, that smoothness and film look would still make a hard to beat studio headshot camera.     

Offline Joe Federer

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Re: Sony moving up
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2017, 05:12:51 PM »
If I was starting fresh, today, I'd look at a FF mirrorless system.

Offline Jeff Behm

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Re: Sony moving up
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2017, 09:48:23 PM »
Either the Sony a9 or a7RII (if I recalled those correctly) would get serious consideration if I were starting new now.  As we've already covered, Sony has work to do on their glass, but they're shaping the future of pro cameras now.